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Non- bull/non-dual wisdom

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What does it mean to shift from an experiencer to an inquirer? What is left when we come to terms that all experiences are impermanent and that we cannot count on its ever changing nature for freedom/lasting happiness? Seekers of liberation require something that is REALliable and always good.

What if you are actually the always present-never changing seer of experience? Would this not then mean that experience relies on you, the knower, yet you remain free from experience?

What if everything you witness is actually an object to you? I am not talking about the ‘you’ that is sitting behind the screen and reading these words. I am talking about the ‘you’ that knows these words as an object, just as it sees the body, thoughts and feelings as an object too.

All things known must stand apart, from you, the “I” who knows. You cannot be a thing you see. Investigate this for a bit. Would this not be the ultimate freedom?

Freedom is not for the seeker. Freedom is FROM the seeker.

This is not a mystical state, statement or status- just absolutely utterly obvious. Actually, you are so obvious that it is apparently missed. This is not anything new, just simply ol- ordinary-non-dual-only- but-awareness you.

This understanding is called self knowledge, and self knowledge is always good. When this knowledge is firm you can weather any of life’s existential storms. Liberation is not experiential bliss but the bliss of knowledge. Discovering both our oneness with everything and our freedom from everything is liberation.

The spiritual market is mashed-up in all sorts of gobbledygook. A practical, non-personal and complete teaching is required_ Vedanta offers a proven means.

Nondoodle  shares  an introductory to the science of Self-inquiry. Discriminating between experience and knowledge is also covered.

 (for some satire fun, tie your hands behind your back and  slap ...nondoodles face…….book )

9 comments

  1. Great stuff here. I do have one question regarding the follow statement: “What if you are actually the always present-never changing seer of experience? Would this not then mean that experience relies on you, the knower, yet you remain free from experience?” I’m not sure I understand how my being the “never changing seer of experience” leads to the experience relying on me. Can you say more about this?

    1. Dougie, the Doodle and I were just chatting about this. In the end, you see that everything is you. But that comes later and shouldn’t be focused on at this point. As long as you identify as the person, focus on discriminating the difference between what is you, and what is not you. Yes, this contradicts what the statement you ask about affirms. All things are just you, but you can only know that when you look from the self. So first, concentrate entirely on actually separating everything that you experience. Look at each thing that is observable to you, and define if it is you, or if it is known by you. Do this over and over, and use the inquiries to help you do this, until you see the difference between you, the seer, and all things known to you. THEN, once that’s been done, you will already know from your own perspective that nothing could possibly be separate from you in any way.

  2. Hello Christian. Its like the spider and the web analogy. The web relies/or is made up from the spider (subject), yet the spider remains free from the web. The web here can refer to all objects/experience. Or let us use the ring and the gold metaphor. The ring (object/experience) relies on the gold (its essence), yet the gold remains unaffected by whatever shape it may take. Even though the the ring or web appears to be different from its source, it has no separate independence.

    In addition, if there is no seer, could there be an experience? Nope. Therefore experience relies on you. Another question to ask is that if this is a non-dual reality, which it is, would this not thn mean that everything is only but you, awareness?

  3. Hi, I have the same question and after reading your response, I am still uncertain about how this is being explained. It is my experience that without my presence (either as an individual “me” or as Awareness), experience is still happening. So, my presence is not required for experience. Another way to say this, is that if you went to a concert without me, I would not have the experience of having seen the concert when it was over, yet that experience still occurred without my presence. You would confirm that. So would videos, the media, etc. “I” (both as an apparent individual “me” or as Awareness) could not have that experience, yet the experience would occur anyway. So, experiences and experiencing is going on all the time and they do not depend or rely on my presence to happen. I get hung up on this because I read quite often that “The world would not exist without You”. How can anyone say this experientially? Another example would be putting a video recorder in a forest for 24 hours where there were no people around to witness anything. Could we say the world disappeared during that time? A camera doesn’t have Awareness. Yet it would show that birds flew through the sky, the sun rose and set, etc. A last analogy would be that we see people die everyday. When they die, the world still exists. So, the teaching “The world would not exist without You” again, doesn’t ring true in experience. Is what this teaching really pointing to is that the world disappears from “My point” in Awareness? I really see this even though I have shifted out of the “me” identification. It would be helpful to have some clarification. Thanks in advance. Joe.

    1. like nonDoodle said, this is tricky. you did in fact offer the answer. vedanta is in fact, as you said, only about “my point” in awareness. ultimately you will see that there is no other point in awareness. right now you’re caught up in “other people’s points” in awareness validating experiences that you do not personally have. the fact that you see a video of a forest with birds, only validates that you see a video of birds. in your direct experience, all you can absolutely verify is the video you are watching, and the thoughts that tell you that the forest and birds exist independently from you. that’s all you know from your own experience. it just so happens that you are “believing the thoughts”. yes you have reason to, but the traveller at dusk also had reason to fear the snake . . . until correct knowledge showed him it was never a snake, but always a rope. that is what is happening here. vedanta shows that to find the truth about reality, you can’t just believe thoughts, in fact you you can not believe anything you can not verify from your direct experience. take your time with this, it’s fine if it just seems “off”. straight up – this is a harder inquiry to get. but if you stick with vedanta, you’ll see that in fact, the only awareness there is, is “your point” in awareness, and looking deeply at “your point” in awareness is what will free you, because “your point” in awareness is the only thing that never, ever changes and is always present, which you can verify in your direct experience anytime.

      1. Hi Brotherman, thank you for the reply. I kind of sense what you are pointing to, but how does one verify this experientially? If there is only awareness and there are no “forms” (just a dream with forms) then how do we verify this experientially? I am only interested in what I can verify experientially. Even if it is a one-time event – because this is the nature of living in a human body – there is constant change. So, for instance, if I have an experience of “Oneness” (which I have), and it dissolves, it doesn’t mean that I haven’t awoken to that aspect of awakening. Some experiences of Oneness are too strong or disorienting for the human body/mind as an ongoing dominant experience. It can be a “mountain-top” experience, but unmaintainable. In that case, it is lived in the same way that we know the earth is round, but we experience it in everyday life as being “flat”. A flat earth is the dominant experience of “knowing experientially” that the earth is round. We move in the world and discern with the knowledge that the earth is round. Of course, if one maintains that everything is a dream, then there isn’t a round earth or a flat earth… but I don’t experience it that way… Peace… Joe

  4. Hey Joe

    This is a tricky one. Its common for inquirers who have worked out their nature as awareness to still get a little tied up in this experience thingy. I suggest you read the Vedanta links provided carefully. Vedanta is a complete teaching, meaning it presents experience from both the apparent reality (Mithya) and reality (Satya).

    Confusing experience from the point of the persons view (jiva) and experience from the Self’s point of view, happens initially. This will be dissolved as you continue to to apply self inquiry.

    Even though this is a non-dual reality, meaning that only you, awareness is present (both as the experiencer and as the experiences), for inquiry sake let us split it up:

    1) Experience from the perspective of Joe’s view (Jiva)
    2) and experience from you, awareness’s view

    All your analogies come from Joes view. When Vedanta says that experience relies on you, it is not talking about Joe. Its talking about you, awareness. Joe is just another experience/object to you. You are the knower of Joe and all the experiences (thoughts/feelings/emotions) that tag along with this apparent person. You are the knower of the concerts, the forest happenings, the flying birds and the rising sun. You are also the seer of the births and deaths.

    If this is a non-dual reality, which it is, this means that there is only one seer. Its the same seer that saw Joe miss the concert whilst the other jivas were jamming on the dance floor. And its the same seer of this experience right now. You, un-born-ordinary-ever-present-awareness is seeing Joe reading these lines.

    In Vedanta the definition of Reality is that which does not change. The world of change can be termed as the ”apparent reality” (Mithya).

    ​W​hat is the only factor that does not​ change​? ​You, awareness, the seer of experience.​ Nothing disappears on the apparent reality, only the negation of its reality. You recognize yourself as whole and complete awareness. This is not a magical experience. This is simply Self knowledge brought about by the application of Self inquiry. Life continues same as before-minus the existential suffering. Freedom is not FOR Joe, freedom is FROM Joe.

    I apologies for being brief. I will come back to my response and edit it. Otherwise, email vedantageeks@gmail.com and we can continue this inquiry together. This link is super juicy. Go through it slowly. http://www.shiningworld.com/top/images/stories/pub-pdfs/Articles/%281%29%20What%20is%20Advaita%20Vedanta.pdf

    1. Hey nondoodle, thanks for the reply. It seems to me that awareness is not an experiencer of anything. Awareness seems to me to be a seeing without a “seer” or a being without a be”er”. It is the body/mind which is the experiencer/seer, and yes of course, the seer is a complex mind construct, but nevertheless, that is how we are wired to experience as humans. So it could equally be said that without the body/mind, there would be no experience. Of course, this is all very complex and intertwined. It is a mystery that can not be put into words. I am going to look again at the link you provided. In truth, after thumbing though it, it seemed to be very wordy and it made a lot of assumptions. It seems like there were a lot of concepts that were already assumed by the author. That’s just my initial sense of it. I am more into the embodiment of awakening. There is a real world out “here”. Even if this is a waking dream, it is no “ordinary” waking dream. There are “real” consequences in this dream. I have a problem with the assumption that the world doesn’t exist if I don’t exist. I appreciate your taking the time to respond and i will look at the file you provided again. Peace… Joe

  5. Hey Joe.

    You are absolutely right. Awareness is not an experiencer, meaning there is no doing/effort applied. So you can say that it is the seeing without the seer if that makes sense to you.

    This ‘i am aware’ pervades your entire experience. There is no experience without it. Its all your life consists of: I am aware of this, I am aware of that. Investigate this for a moment. The ‘i am aware’ is the seer of Joe and the world too. This is nothing mystical. It just takes some patient moment-to-moment self inquiry.

    Of course there are consequences and responsibilities (karma) for Joe. No one is denying this. All Vedanta is pointing out is that you are the knower of Joe and the actions/results that appear. If you are the knower, can you be effected by what is witnessed? Have you, awareness ever been stained by any experience?

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